Chat

emilyvickery: Will, maybe start with NCTE definitions

Luann: hello everyone - thank you for the invite. It's nice to meet all of you. I'm new to Twitter.

JenWagner: how long should a pause be between a question asked and then answers --- just wondering

mktabor: Apologies, but I'm just text today - at least for now. I'm limited to listening and typing

lorenchuk: @Jen Wagner, no set length, the less dead time here, the better I think

Nellie Detusch: Hi everyone

emilyvickery: Link to Dave's IntroEmerginTech course. http://ltc.umanitoba.ca/wiki/IntroEmergingTech#Week_1:_What.27s_in_a_literacy.3F_-_crafting_a_path_towards_initial_literacies

Dave-principalofchange: Think of how the printing press changed religion - what if everybody could read the bible.

doris3m: you are here!

mktabor: @JenWagner, I'm willing to wait as long as it takes for someone to think of a worthwhile answer

lorenchuk: negotiating learning and truth

Moderator: NCTE says literacy is "malleable"

dave cormier: literacies or skills?

angela maiers: Hi Will-thank you for doing this!

dave cormier: hey angela

shareski: @Dave...still trying to understand why the distinction matters

emilyvickery: Let's try that link again to Dave's course: http://tinyurl.com/8ogvv2

dave cormier: knitting... is a skill

lorenchuk: @mktabor, agreed however most folks here will have worthwhile ideas to share

ErnieEaster: Hi JimBurkeMaine

Chris Lehmann: Actually... let's not mandate anything. Enough mandates.

dave cormier: there are knots that you can 'learn'

dave cormier: same as reading is a 'skill'

Moderator: not allowed

JenWagner: I am still very content with my firm belief that there are not new literacies -- just new options to utilize them

angela maiers: 1st time here- is there a way to call in

Moderator: do skills lead to literacies

Moderator: ?

Laura Deisley: good point dean

Josh: can you assess literacies?

JoseRodriguez: Listening to David Warlick's last podcast he mentioned the role of "master Learner" and literacy is our ability to learn and relearn

Paula White: Angela, bottom left corner, do you see hte microphone?

shareski: 1st time caller, long time listener

Moderator: ha

Jackie Gerstein: maybe it is not one or the other skils lead to literacies - lieracies lead to increased skills.

Paula White: Angela, do you also see the hand on the left? click on that for your turn, then the mic to talk.

Stuart Ciske: I agree with Jen - the "new" literacies to me are really a new application of skills kids learned always i school, but have become more important given new technologies and new ways to apply learning and what is now a "basic" neessity to be a productive person, not just for jobs.

angela maiers: New literacies are identifiable they are not matsterable

Tim Stahmer: Isn't "literacy" a set of skills, specifically decoding and encoding skills?

Laura Deisley: is literacy an application of a skill?

JoseRodriguez: Literacy as in being able to navigate different environments to make mearning

Chris Lehmann: Is there a difference between "skill" and "literacy?" Can we decide how we want to use those terms?

Maria U: "Literacy" is starting to sound like "critical thinking"...

Nellie Detusch: well there are programs for higher order thinking skills

dave cormier: but how can we agree on those targets?

shareski: Targets often are really skills

windsordi: skills VS competencies?

dave cormier: that ends up being a power negotiation

JoseRodriguez: Perhaps a skill is isolated and literacy is where different skills in our toolbox come together

csessums: teachers need targets? we've totally deprofessionalized teachers haven't we?

micwalker: How different are skills in cursive and phonetics with literacy in writing and reading?

dave cormier: those with more 'power' end up making those decisions

angela maiers: @chris lehman- yes Skills are materable, mcan be "cecked off literacies are ways of being, living, leraning...they are habits and attitudes

ErnieEaster: @angela maiers what do you mean by not masterable?

JenWagner: I don't think a student knowing how to "search the internet" to find content is a literacy

Chris Lehmann: @csessums yes, yes, we have.

Jackie Gerstein: We can throw in another variable - then what are the competencies?

mktabor: Dave-principal makes an important point that i hope isn't lost - we need clarity for the sake of administration

sylvia martinez: teachers ask for these things. it doesn't mean that that's a good idea

Moderator: What if we just define in detail what it is that we think kids need to know/be able to do?

Laura Deisley: @will just what I was thinking...let's take label off

dave cormier: this is the article I was talking about earlier re: literacies http://www.geocities.com/c.lankshear/Oslo.pdf

micwalker: @JenWagner I think the ability to access information and determine if that information is accurate is a literacy.

JoseRodriguez: @jackie compentencies how good you are at a skill

Chris Lehmann: Will -- Thoughtful, Wise, Passionate and Kind. That's what I want for my kids. Everything else is details.

mktabor: it's already a disjointed conversation

Dave-principalofchange: We need to remember that we all teach literacy, not just the English teachers

ericj: word

angela maiers: You do not "master" reading critically, making inference, weighing evidence, discerning important vs. nonimportant info....like driving a car-you get better the more you practice on increasingly more complex roads

dave cormier: My meaning of literacy is not an enhanced definition of reading and writing

Gordon: Literacy seems related to the ability to converse/communicate w/in context..such as being mathematatically literate

dave cormier: that's changing the defniitino of reading

Jackie Gerstein: What happens to visual literacies?

Chris Lehmann: Yes, Will, you are.

dave cormier: I think you are will

sylvia martinez: literacy is being able to make sense of the world.

dave cormier: lol... Lehmann beat me to it

Chris Lehmann:

JenWagner: @micwalker but it has nothing to do with a new literacy -- students have always had to learn to be discerning on content

ehelfant: ben grey saiys "Literacy is the ability to establish thoughts and draw meaning from communicating ideas. I would say this encompasses reading, writing, speaking, and listening. Like you and I discussed yesterday, I think viewing and showing have come up, but I'm not ready to accept them as new rather than say they are an integral part of reading."

Tim Stahmer: Do we place too much emphasis on reading?

Moderator: ok

Doug: Am thinking about the difference between literacy and comprehension

ehelfant: since this started with Ben seemed that should go in here

shareski: @sylvia....does that defnition need to be unwrapped? If so, how?

Chris Lehmann: Tim -- I think we're putting to little emphasis on reading these days.

csessums: let the students twll you

jonelle: my def of literacy includes communicatin skills- reading, writing, speaking...now I want to prepare elem studnets for literacies in technologies

Chris Lehmann: I think the whole test-driven curriculum is moving us away from focusing on the kind of reading that is real literacy.

Jackie Gerstein: Have to look at the survival skills - like being about to READ the snows in Alaska for survival.

shareski: @chris..define reading

sylvia martinez: we put too much emphais on the mechanics of reading. that's letteracy, not literacy

dave cormier: @shareski lol

Laura Deisley: @ehelfant see ben's thoughts here: http://literacydiscussion.wikispaces.com

Jackie Gerstein: Nice point Sylvia

Paula White: to quote ben grey, Literacy is about understanding through communicating, not establishing a finite skill set to be able to be proficient at a given concept

Nellie Detusch: memorization was an important skill in the past that is no longer relevant

ErnieEaster: @micwalker again it is critical thinking - to be able to evaluate

JoseRodriguez: in discovering what are these new literacies we have to be careful not to throw out the baby with the bath water

Chris Lehmann: Sylvia -- a-yep!

angela maiers: @chrislehmann- agreed-especially the "skill" part of reading, decoding, fluency, phonemic awareness...important, but way too much emphasis

JimBurkeMaine: Isn't preparing for citizenship more important that preparing for the job market?

micwalker: @JenWagner Did your teacher tell you to be skeptical of World Book or Groliers? I think the fact that there are so many sources, this process has to be addressed differently than the way we were taught.

LindaN: The use od Dibels to progress monitor students' progress in reading directs instruction in a singular direction.

Doug: @Angela ... you feeling better now?

angela maiers: @csessums- Yes!

Josh: Burke - interesting on role of school....

Louise: @JimBurkeMaine Yes, I agree!

Chris Lehmann: Dean - "reading" in terms of being able to analyze, synthesize and make meaning from text. And text in the broadest sense of the word.

JenWagner: @micwalker -- in regards to encyclopedias no -- in regards to books, yes

Jackie Gerstein: I do think there is a lot new here. I have developed skills that I did not have nor need as a young student. The world evolves - so must our perception of what literacy is.

shareski: @chris..define text

angela maiers: @sylvia- love this- letteracy not literacy

Chris Lehmann: Cormier -- nice job bringing in post-structualism.

Josh: making meaning from all sources, digital and beyond?

dave cormier: @Lehmann

Tim Stahmer: @chrislehmann We put too much emphasis on reading as a unique skill separate from any other kind of literacy.

Joe Brennan: Subcommittees!

emilyvickery: From NCTE: "These literacies—from reading online newspapers to participating in virtual classrooms—are multiple, dynamic, and malleable. As in the past, they are inextricably linked with particular histories, life possibilities and social trajectories of individuals and groups. Twenty-first century readers and writers need to"

Jackie Gerstein: Isn't free form discussion a new literacy ; )

Chris Lehmann: Dean -- as broadly as possible. Books, web pages, art work, speeches, etc...

Dave-principalofchange: Tim is right, reading is everbody's job

JenWagner: I think we are trying to LABEL something that might not need to be labeled. Because we tend to like "exacts"

Edwin Wargo: Is our conversation right now an example of literacy, a set of literacies, or a set of skills? I think this is a good example of the kinds of learning we want to do with our students.

diane: You need to specifiy the level-beginning is much different

Paula White: I don't want my skill in "literacy" to be determined by answering a set of predetermined questions about a text/book/story I have read!

Moderator: Jen, if so, then what is the conversation we should be having?

windsordi: the "world as it is" is not the world they'll need to survive in...

angela maiers: @Doug-yes, much! Thanks for asking! I am back to my ole' onry sef!

JenWagner: Smiles -- I like this Will, makes me think

carolarc: I think literacy is something that is measured.

Chris Lehmann: The hardest part of this entire discussion is that it's a little Pirsigian... in that in our attempt to define it, we strangle it.

JenWagner: but I think we keep going in circles

lorenchuk: Helping kids navigate the world as it is - is our job. That includes multiple literacies and does not take away from being literate

dave cormier: For a VERY detailed discussion of this see http://www.egs.edu/mediaphi/pdfs/bonnie-stewart-techknowledge.pdf

Doug: @Edwin if this is an example of literacy how do we know about comprehension

shareski: Switch tothe wide layout for a better view of the chat

windsordi: so I can see the argument against skills, and the movement toward learning compentancies

diane: but it can't be only about measuring it

Chris Lehmann: And worse... once we come up with a definition, it'll limit us. When you have a hammer, everyone looks like something to nail.

Gordon: Literacy is based on generations..I agree with that point as the mechanics and "universe" change

lorenchuk: How can we help our students gain the literacies that they need

Jackie Gerstein: Maybe it is a definition of what students need to thrive in the 21st century

Laura Deisley: back to your point will: what should kids be able to do?

lorenchuk: That seems to be the focus

JenWagner: Yes, I agree -- we limit if we define

JenWagner: hey Diane and Chris

JoseRodriguez: I like the idea of literacy being like a moving target and not something that we can get a diploma from

Diane Main: I think we need to equip students to solve problems that haven't been invented yet. So, how do we do that?

shareski: shameless plug

dave cormier: LOL

Moderator: shameless plug

dave cormier: sounds more like a bar

sylvia martinez: that's why teachers asking for a list won't work

John Pederson: http://educon21.wikispaces.com/

Louise: Looking forward to Educon!

Moderator: so what should we be talking about???

sylvia martinez: the act of making the list shows how hopeless an idea that is

dave cormier: @chris it is and it isn't... it is for you... but is it for everyone?

Diane Main: and the ability to make sense of THEIR world as it changes without us

angela maiers: To help explain the complexity and the dynamic nature of literacies-I have been using Luke and Freebody's Four Resources so describe and crystalize the roles and responsiilites learners have to be competently do to make sense of text and the world Anyone familiar

Moderator: So should we be talking about what is it that we think that kids need to make sense of?

lorenchuk: @Diane yes

Nellie Detusch: "our world" what is that for you? I wonder if the same for all of us.

JenWagner: I think perhaps we might want to talk about WHY it has become so important to define it -- what do we hope will come from it

csessums: @will how can we re-professionalize teachers

Moderator: Nellie good question

Jackie Gerstein: "The Workforce Investment Act of 1998 defines literacy as 'an individual's ability to read, write, speak in English, compute and solve problems at levels of proficiency necessary to function on the job, in the family of the individual and in society.' This is a broader view of literacy than just an individual's ability to read, the more traditional concept of literacy. As information and technology have become increasingly shaped our society [sic], the skills we need to function successfully have gone beyond reading, and literacy has come to include the skills listed in the current definition."

Josh: true, but how we build knowledge in science (scientifically literate) is different from how we make meaning in other disciplines, eh?

Stuart Ciske: I believe we are confusing what it measn to be literate in today's sociiety with defining literacy.

Todd Williamson: nellie you beat me to that one

ericj: I think the kids decide what is they need to make sense of

angela maiers: This models includes, skills, strategies, habits, behaviors, awarenesses of text and context

dave cormier: Looking to take up Nellie's (and now Todd's) point

Diane Main: there are some things (values, abilities, skills, whatever you want to name them) that are universal and timeless

Dave Solon: I like Chris' definition. You can then be literate IN certain subject(s).

angela maiers: YES!

Dave Solon: I like Chris' definition. You can then be literate IN certain subject(s).

shareski: So if we take Chris' broad definition....do we then move to skill?

mktabor: Apologies, folks, but there's an old saying in the Jesuit school tradition - "Deeds, not words." this is the 1,001th time that scores of self-professed 'educators' sit around the e-campfire to play Education Philosophy 101. if anyone is interested in talking about specifics re: literacy [reading, writing] strategies, or specific uses of technology to improve related skills, i'm available on twitter @matthewktabor - have a good weekend. Don't forget - "Deeds, not words."

sylvia martinez: i don't think you can separate literacy from content.

ErnieEaster: @Angela can you explain Luke & Freebody's Four Resources so describe and crystalize the roles and responsiilites learners have to be competently do to make sense of text and the world

angela maiers: @Dave Solon- yes, exactly!

Sue L.: Literacy... the ability to make sense of our world - the ability to discuss and come to an understanding of messy conversations like this one!

shareski: @mktabor...I'm too dumb to even know what you're taling about.

dave cormier: bye mr. Tabor

Edwin Wargo: @Doug - I think comprehension is inherent through our participation, creation of content, and application/assimilation.

dave cormier: not interested

Jackie Gerstein: What scares me is that these deifnitions of literacy are being defined by a mainstream US culture

jonelle: or literacy from communication

tweisz: I'm trying to get my mind around a definition of what value is added to our traditional view of literacy by tacking on the moniker "21st Century"

Jeremy Brueck: So this is a discussion, not of what literacy is today, but what is should education look like today since we know literacy is different now?

angela maiers: @Dean- not skill- it is a cluster of competencies

Dave-principalofchange: So true.

Luann: agree on content, sylvia

shareski: @angela....help me understand the difference

windsordi: possible approach - what can we do for our students to enable them to be active learners, regardless of their world... and to be fluid enough, dynamic enough to continue their learning and literacies beyond the realm of school

Dave-principalofchange: Is there an expectation that we all will be authors?

emilyvickery: Aren't we really redefining "learning"?

Doug: An we talking about understanding multimodal texts and finding meaning in ideas that involve text/graphics/sound/video/animation and graphic all rolled in

JoseRodriguez: @jeremy pretty much

Dave-principalofchange: Do kids lose out if they are not able to get their ideas out in print, blog, wiki, twitter...'

diane: don't we want our students to create content?

Tim Stahmer: literacy = ability to communicate

Dave-principalofchange: I want them to create content

Jackie Gerstein: Then global citizens need to be part of this discussion.

sylvia martinez: i think we try to reduce everything to teaching instead of helping kids experience the world

Jeremy Brueck: @doug, I've been looking a lot recently at multi-modality in emergent literacy

Diane Main: should we not perhaps identify those things we know are missing in some students who seem ill-prepared, and list those as being what's needed?

shareski: @Tim...not just communicate but comprehend

Todd Williamson: Dave-principal I think with the ease of publication we're going to find out that there should be that emphasis on being an author

Josh: @emilyvickery - agree on the learning point

jonelle: it seems from what I have readu that the question includes "what can we call/label "21st century"

Jackie Gerstein: just in the classroom?

Nellie Detusch: In my high school students' life, literacy is then being able to use all the features of a cell phone in and out of class.

Moderator: sylvia...I think that's the nugget that I'm interested in...that experiencing the world part.

angela maiers: Quick overview of Four Resources-can be applied to every context, domain, medium, etc...http://www.angelamaiers.com/2008/07/the-four-resour.html

tweisz: goes beyond just communicating to (hopefully) a captive audience, but also looking for that audience to add value to, or expand your original idea

Tim Stahmer: @shareski I see communications as a two-way process. To communicate effectively, you must be able to understand what others are saying to you.

micwalker: Right on Kelly! Good question!

Moderator: The world feels different now.

Dave-principalofchange: Is it a problem if a student can google an answer but his/her teachers cannot?

Doug: the world children live in is now multi-modal ... just decoding traditionally won't do any more it is about undersatnding all forms of media and the insinuations of authors in their various' writings'

Luann: the trick for us in WA and a few other states is to mesh experiencing the world with standardized testing........

shareski: @Tim....I'm not comfortable with lumping the two together but that my just be me

Nellie Detusch: literacy for adults is not the current literacy needs of k-12 kids.

Jeremy Brueck: Are you all familiar with Dresang's Radical Change Texts? http://www.citejournal.org/vol8/iss3/seminal/article2.cfm

JoseRodriguez: @DavePrin as long a a teacher can very that "google" answer

JoseRodriguez: verify

micwalker: How do we get staff to see this broader definition of literacy, and their responsibility to help students with these skills?

sylvia martinez: i think a teachers job is to funnel down some of the messy world and help students navigate pieces that add up to a bigger idea

Moderator to sylvia martinez: Talk about that...

Doug Belshaw 2: @Dave: How are literacies 'enforcing' a world view?

Paula White: I agree, Sylvia!

Joe Brennan: Remember the famous quote "Knowledge is Power" was a warning to the elite, not a cry for democracy.

Chris Lehmann: Sylvia -- yep. But how does that look on a standardized test?

Moderator: Chris...you are such a downer. ;0)

LindaN: @micwalker Use the same methods to communicate vital information to them- then they will need to learn how to understand it.

sylvia martinez: @chris that's the problem. we let the tail wag the dog

Paula White: Although that doesn'tmean water down. .it means teach in a way that kids make sense and connect those bigger ideas!

Chris Lehmann: Will -- I think we are very close to needing to tear down the system.

jonelle: yes sylvia- how does that look for elem levels to prepare them for the world

Moderator: Not.

Doug Belshaw 2: Has anyone here taught in both the UK and US?

Jackie Gerstein: Yes they did they prepared students for an industrial factory model - Schools are systems are fairly new and were developed to educated large masses of people for the workforce. So maybe the discussion needs to revolve around the PURPOSE of school in the 21st century

rozansdm: Literacy is about communication. Literacy is the ability to acquire and express information. This can be through print or other media.

KarenJan: @chrislehmann and it has to start with teacher education programs

Diane Main: one of my own kids attended school in both UK and US

Gordon: Chris...don't you require students to demonstrate literacy in your interview process?

dave cormier: @Doug Belshaw when we 'decide' which literacies are forwarded we are exercising power

Moderator: So here is your $64 million Q, Mr. Lehmann. Do we do that from within or outside?

Diane Main: why do you ask?

JenWagner: @moderator I was wondering the same thing

Doug: Today’s Guardian has a wonderful piece on a new ’school’ to be opened in Sheffield this coming Monday.

A new £4.7m primary school in Sheffield is facing criticism for dropping the word “school” from its title after governors decided the term had “negative connotations”.The headteacher of Sheffield’s Watercliffe Meadow, Linda Kingdon, said the south Yorkshire school, which is due to open on Monday, will instead be called a “place for learning”.

Wikipedia gives a wonderful definition of ‘school’ noting it to originally mean ‘leisure’ ! Whereas, much more profound perhaps, the online dictionary merely states ‘an educational institution’.

Doug Belshaw 2: @Dave: Yes, but description is not enforcement.

Jackie Gerstein: What is the purpose of school in the 21st century?

Jeremy Brueck: @chris i agree about the tearing down, but who stands ready with the vision to build it back up. the collective wisdom of the corwd?

Chris Lehmann: @DaveCormier -- I think you're right. I think the real, sad truth is that -- in America -- the unspoken truth is that our society wants schools that are good enough to continue the status quo, but slightly better, but we don't REALLY want folks who can question and change the system.

Paula White: Chris, and why are we looking for standardized tests to show that learnign? What is wrong with performances or portfolios? And, yes, we could standardize the "grading" of those, but VERY carefully!

ericj: go VT

Moderator: Doug: Link?

Jon Becker: @KarenJan - I wouldn't count on teacher ed. programs breaking down the system (coming from one employed by a School of Ed.)

Jeremy Brueck: @chris and not just the vision, but the plan to accomplish the vision

Dave Solon: Are we defining literacy, or literacy needs? 'Literacy needs' are not the same as a definition of 'literacy,' no?

dave cormier: @Doug Belshaw i mean by creating policy and decidign what's goes in teh classroom

Doug Belshaw 2: @Doug: Sheffield is 10 miles away from me.

doris3m: how do you help university students to get these new literacies when they are not use to collaborate with each other?

Jackie Gerstein: Principles as transformation leaders - how many actually are?

dave cormier: that is prescription

tweisz: @Jackie Gerstein - I agree - definition of schools needs to change

Chris Lehmann: Will -- I'm still trying to do it from the inside...

Doug: sorry forgot link http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/02/school

Chris Lehmann: Will -- but I'm wondering how long that lasts.

KarenJan: @jonbecker, I agree but that is one of the places that has to undergo radical transformation

dave cormier: And i'm going after the teacher training

Jackie Gerstein: We are loosing them mentally as 50% of adolescents are bored every day at school

Chris Lehmann: Jeremy -- I'd trust LDH.

Doug: @Doug certaily is !!

dave cormier: power...

Doug Belshaw 2: @Dave: That presupposes a top-down model with teachers as automatons. I'd like to think I've a little more creative autonomy than that.

Dave-principalofchange: Jackie, so true

Todd Williamson: Jackie...only 50%?

windsordi: theere is ALWAYS change...

KarenJan: @jackie - I thinking the percentage is higher than that!

John Pederson: forget the kids, focus on the teachers

Nellie Detusch: we have talk to them for one thing

sylvia martinez: i think as a community, the techies have to connect more to traditional progressives

dave cormier: @Doug Belshaw umm... you may or may not, but I'm assuming that you have a curriculum that you follow

Chris Lehmann: Sylvia -- you know that what I'm always trying to do.

dave cormier: and someone decided what that was

Maryanne: What is the NTCE siite again?

csessums: New Sputnik=global economic competition

dave cormier: and that person wasn't necessarily only you

sylvia martinez: @chris you'd be my big example

Jon Becker: @sylvia - traditional progressives - seemingly an oxymoron, but I know what you mean

windsordi: NCTE - http://www.ncte.org/positions/statements/21stcentdefinition

Doug Belshaw 2: @Dave: Yes, there are learning objectives, but *how* I get to them is up to me to an extent.

KarenJan: @sylvia - who are the traditional progressive?

joycevalenza: Good analogy, chris

shareski: a rally killer

Dave-principalofchange: It goes sour if some kids lose out

sylvia martinez: @jon LOL. didn't notice that when i typed it

JenWagner: thinking

micwalker: How many schools are teaching students to learn how to watch a chat fly by while listening to people talk about really nuanced concepts and make sense of it? It's certainly not something I was taught 30 years ago!

Diane Main: Well, we already know that the way we do "schools" is the opposite of how the brain learns well. And then we use meaningless standardized tests to "measure" student performance on false tasks that don't tell us anything. And all the people who know the truth about what will work have not been consulted by the people who mandate the testing.

Jackie Gerstein: I think it is sematics - simply stated, What is good 21st century pedagogy?

Diane Main: I feel like I'm in the Resistance.

windsordi: ... which is not the NTCE group! 

dave cormier: @Jackie what's pedagogy?

Jon Becker: @sylvia - but there IS, as you know, quite a long and wonderful tradition of progressive education

dave cormier: semantics are important

sylvia martinez: @karenjan dewey, friere (sp?), Debby Meiers, where is my spell checker

John Connell: Freire

Luann: @micwalker exactly. Kids can't write what's on a board and listen at the same time. To do so is a skill, I woudl say.

KarenJan: @sylvia - ok, i thought we could identify them within our current schools

lindseyb16: @DianeMain you a right I think we have to change how students think of school it isn't a place with walls anymore

Gordon: Any college entrance persons? What do you look for from a student to demonstrate different literacy skills?

dave cormier: @shareski http://www.edst.educ.ubc.ca/aerc/2000/atleom&jamesa-final.PDF try this

Louise: This is still such a minority with not much support from most admins

Jackie Gerstein: Semantics are important, I agree - but for me it is about the languaging/the meat of the messages not the labels

JenWagner: KellyHines -- you are elementary age??

Jon Becker: @KarenJan - look up the Summerhill School

JimBurkeMaine: Ultimately, it is the same old instructivism vs. constructivism battle. ..

sylvia martinez: @karen dennis litky has opened 50 schools

dave cormier: @Jackie I'm not really intending to trade in labels

JimBurkeMaine: Need there be a battle?

micwalker: @Luann Except at home, students are multitasking all the time. They don't learn that at school, they do it at home!

shareski: @Dave....there aren't any pictures in that document.

Jon Becker: @KarenJan - look up the Sudbury Valley schools

Sue L.: @micwalker or teaching how to facilitate this type of learning or summarizing such learning?

KarenJan: @jonbecker - read about them when I was in HS in the early 70s

Chris Lehmann: Yay, Summerhill!

dave cormier: @shareski LOL

windsordi: @Dave-principalofchange:... and that cat 4 should be essential!

Jeremy Brueck: interesting, are we missing a voice in this conversation then...the student voice. what do they think literacy is?

sylvia martinez: ah summerhill... also a cautionary tale

shareski: Doug Belshaw from sunny England

jonelle: what have you seen labeled as "21st century learning"that you did not think belongs in 21st century learning?

Gordon: If you were an employer, what would literacy look and feel like...sound like?

KarenJan: @jonbecker - I was advocating education change when i was in HS and I graduated in 72! change is slow

LindaN: @jonBecker @sylvia There is a long tradition of progressive schools. but the question is why haven't they multiplies and grown to a large degree?

Luann: @micwalker very true,. They can walk and txt at the same time.

dave cormier: i didn't know there were two Doug Belshaws

Diane Main: Students think literacy is whatever we tell them it is. What are they going to have to put on the test? That's what they want to know.

Hiram Cuevas: Sounds like fostering a Love of Learning or the affective objectives of one's curriculum.

Chris Lehmann: Sylvia -- any construct we build, from KIPP to Summerhill, has things it will do well and things it won't.

John Connell: There are 2 Summerhills - the famous one (AS Neill).....

Jon Becker: @KarenJan - slow? that's euphemistic

Moderator: Hiram...yes

KarenJan: how many of you thought HS was relevant when you were in HS?

Moderator: not me

shareski: It bugs me that all UK people sound so smart

Louise: not me either

Moderator: me too

John Connell: and a less famous one, Summerhill Academy (Scotland) - RF Mackenzie was principal - interesting man, interesting educator

Chris Lehmann: And anything writ large will have thought-bleed from its original idea.

Luann: i didn't.

Nellie Detusch: we need change makers who can move things in the school systems

Josh: I didn't either

Doug Belshaw 2: @shareski: LOL

sylvia martinez: @dean it's just the accent, don't let it fool you

Kelly Hines: @jenwagner yes

lorenchuk: @KarenJan, a few classes changed me, most of it was forgettable

Joe Brennan: Ah, Summerhill!

Chris Lehmann: Yeah, but what an accent.

Shawn: I did only because teachers kept using examples of how what we were learning applied to what we might be doing after HS.

KarenJan: @jonb - yes, i think school is less progressive then when I graduated many years ago

shareski: @sylvia...glad someone finally said it out loud.

Kelly Hines: @jackie gerstein I think it's pedagogy too

Jackie Gerstein: Thanks Kelly

Sue L.: @Karenjan when I was in HS, I saw it as the painful step I needed to go thru to get to university.. then when I got to university, I realized it was just like HS... LOL

KarenJan: how many of you homeschooled or were homeschooled (just curious to know)

Hiram Cuevas: Often there is too little empahsis on the affective components of our respective curriculums. It appears that much of the web 2.0 tools sow the interest students have in for their learning.

Jackie Gerstein: For example, every teacher at my school would say that they differentiate instruction but very few actually do

lindseyb16: I din't enjoy learning till I left school and college

Shawn: I've worked with homeschoolers.

lindseyb16: I was educated in the uk

Todd Williamson: @Jackie I think that's very common, many teachers THINK they do what they should in all situations

Jon Becker: @KarenJan - and/or, how many homeschool(ed) or are considering homeschooling their kids?

Moderator: Emphasis slowly

Kelly Hines: @todd williamson Exactly

Jackie Gerstein: I'm not so sure that the skills in the 1950s are the same - look at the changes in library science and vocational ed.

Todd Williamson: be it tech, assessment, management, all aspects

Chris Lehmann: I loved school... I loved sitting in a room and being allowed to just learn. But I had some great, great teachers. And if I had a bad teacher, I just tortured them until they left me alone and let me read my books.

KarenJan: @jonb - I bring it up because I homeschooled my kids in MS and read twenty books prior to taking the plunge

Jackie Gerstein: I was tortured throughout my k12 education.

Chris Lehmann: HEY! What'd I do?

lorenchuk: @Chris, where did you go to school? Great testimony for them

Michael Dixon: @Chris Lehmann - Sounds like me as well.

kjarrett: @JackieG concur - vocational ed in our town is WAY different than it was when I was in school!

Luann: @chris Lehman as did I and i see this in some ids who have issues in other classes -

KarenJan: hated school but was voted most likely to succeed

Diane Main: Who carries a physics paper around with them? LOL

Chris Lehmann: @lorenchuk Pennsbury High School -- public school in Fairless Hills, PA.

KarenJan: found school completely irrelevant

dave cormier: @Diane don't you have yours?

Jon Becker: I did schooling well, but I don't know that my schools did well by me

jonelle: this reminds me of when eductors were trying to define "Whole Language" - what was and what was not.

kjarrett: @JackieG it is VERY technology based, far moreso than regular HS!

Josh: Carry physics papers on Kindle

tweisz: the need to define it often comes from a defensive position - from those detractors who believe the term 21st century means nothing more than "fun gadgets"

Dave Solon: @lindseyb16 I definitely enjoy learning much more when I'm not in 'school.'

Todd Williamson: I enjoyed HS simply because I'm an addicted learner...don't know if my teachers really had anything to do with that though...

Jackie Gerstein: So I think we need to be careful of egocentric views - what worked/works for us as students we believe that is what is best for own students.

angela maiers: Great point about semantics!

dave cormier: @shareski Qiks them from hi iphone

KarenJan: ask my own kids- they know how much I LOVE to learn

lorenchuk: @Chris Lehmann, do you have contacts there now? Is it still as good?

Joe Brennan: Had a very classical education K-12 but emphasis was definitely on thinking. Lucky I guess.

JenWagner: I never had discussions like this in college

JimBurkeMaine: Labeling gives power.

windsordi: @ Chris Lehmann - sounds alot like my son... till he encountered the teacher who actulally frisked him for books and took them away daily as he was reading TOO much!

Nellie Detusch: It's too late for changes because learning is no longer housed in schools

Diane Main: I think a big part of literacy in this century isn't going to be what you can DO, but rather what you can figure out what to do.

Luann: research shows that new teachers tend to teach as they were tought if that method worked for their learning

diane: do you think we are here because we love to learn?

Chris Lehmann: @lorenchuk I'm told it's not as good... there was a generation of teachers who were amazing that we're losing.

Moderator: Diane yes

Jackie Gerstein: I LOVE to learn but hated the constraints of the school - now I try to create a classroom that I wished I had as a student.

JenWagner: Diane -- yes and no

angela maiers: @JimBurke-it also allows us to take the literacies across domains and disciplines

micwalker: How far into the 21st Century can we drop the "21st Century" part and just blend it in to all literacies? How about today!

KarenJan: @diane - love to learn and want to instill that love in our studetns!

Sue L.: after swimming around in the "learning object" cesspool, I've decided there are some topics we just can't get a definitive definition on

lindseyb16: The most relevant learning I get now is from my pln and I am interested in how to get that idea accepted by students who don't like school

emilyvickery: As market forces shift, it is not about School or Education. It's about Learning. More choice in learning as market adapts (and perhaps defines literacy for educators).

Jackie Gerstein: We are trying to educate students for a world that does not yet exist - forgot who said it.

dave cormier: I'm not sure there is that movement...

dave cormier: what he said

JenWagner: @diane -- I think we enjoy sharing with each other -- and I also feel we just like being w/ our group

Doug Belshaw 2: OK. Cool.

Doug Belshaw 2:

Moderator: I still come back to what Sylvia said "helping kids experience the world"

Jackie Gerstein: Big movement for online/distance learning for k12

Doug Belshaw 2: I know, I know...

Tim Stahmer: There is a movement in the US to get rid of teacher colleges.

shareski: Define basics

csessums: delete schools or reform schooling? semantics!

tweisz: veeerry slowly

Jackie Gerstein: John Dewey also believe that kids should experience the world!

Joe Brennan: and HOME schools!

Nellie Detusch: I agree csessums

Jon Becker: @TimStahmer - yes there is and it will put me out of work!

Diane Main: Also, there are completely different worlds in the big urban centers versus the 'burbs and rural areas. Plus then you have private versus public.

KarenJan: @will - I think our students have much to teach us about experiencing the world - they are so globally connected

Moderator: semantics again

tweisz: when people say back to basics I think they just mean the way they were taught

snbeach: yes

Todd Williamson: @will "the world" is very different for different groups...I'd love to think they should experience the entire world...but for many reaching out to their whole county is significant progress

Doug: I come back to my Sheffield example today ... http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2009/jan/02/school

Laura Deisley: Issue is how do you "do schooling" expediently or efficiently? Will education ever shift if it can't fit in a box?

Doug Belshaw 2: Isn't calling it 'home school' kind of against the point?

dave cormier: haha just described america again

snbeach: homeschooling is what you are doing--home school is where I do it.

Moderator: Todd agreed, which is why it shouldn't be one definition for all

dave cormier: keep promising i wont do that

windsordi: eLearning can take place within schools... and should for at least an initial course to ensure the student gets the mentoring and support they may need to be successful

KarenJan: yes, there is an unschooling movement

shareski: @tweisz true but when we unwrap basics, it could look pretty appealing

dave cormier: There's one of the troublemakers

Nellie Detusch: let's kids teach the teachers

Tim Stahmer: Shouldn't home be part of school anyway?

Luann: some students would benefit from a different view of the world. They see THEIR world, not THE world.

angela maiers: So much of what teachers "teach" has nothing to do with the definitions and beleifs about literacy-it is the program the school has purchased. Whatever the "skill" of the day is-that is what gets taught

Sue L.: @karenjan... globally connected but perhaps not digitally literate

Doug Belshaw 2: Let kids teach the teachers. Teach them what? Social networking?

Laura Deisley: who is responsible for the "schooling"?

Joe Brennan: Any librarians (Joyce) how has research literacy changed?

csessums: @chris --I'll take a mochiatto, plz

sylvia martinez: the biggest 100 districts are about 85% of all kids (something like that)

Doug Belshaw 2: (*I'm being purposely contrarian*)

angela maiers: @Nellie-great point! I learn the most from kids!

lorenchuk: @Chris Lehmann, maybe we should be talking about how to continue to encourage amazing teachers then. I wonder how that correlates here

Doug: Come back Ivan all is forgiven ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Illich

windsordi: eLearning becomes more critical if you want to continue your learning... or have an interest that is not currently offered as a credit course at your school

Nellie Detusch: I learned more from my teenage children than from my teachers

emilyvickery: Alabama and Michigan now require one onine course for graduation requirement.

KarenJan: @suel - digitally literate, but not in the ways to help them learn what state standards says they must learn

Laura Deisley: great distinction Chris

lorenchuk: @micwalker, great idea

csessums: @emily -- and this is a good thing?

Nellie Detusch: no, kids are a lot smarter than adults realize

dave cormier: mmm... power again

John Connell: @doug i think if ivan illich were to write Deschooling Society today it would be quite a different book - maybe still based on same first principles, but quite different conclusions, possibly

Moderator: And the options are...?

csessums: @nellie are they really?

Laura Deisley: are we then back to the "scale" issue?

Nellie Detusch: give kids a chance

micwalker: @KarenJan Agreed. Students can text and update their facebook, but don't ask them to plug in a peripheral or turn the computer on!

windsordi: Kids are smart... but they still get stuck and need some mentoring...

angela maiers: @KarenJan-it takes a very comfortable and confident teacher to allow kids to be content contributors

Shawn: @csessums I think so. Imagine if they had the power of choice in classes using that method. How many more in here would say that HS or MS was much more interesting?

Diane Main: I see two major different kinds of students in my technology classes (grades 1 thru 8): those who can pretty much learn anything, and those who want me to tell them exactly what to do and think.

Joe Brennan: Ivan, the Austrian from Cuernavaca!

dave cormier: ah. "know enough"

Nellie Detusch: it should be collaborative shared learning

dave cormier: Know what?

Edwin Wargo: Out of curiousity - Will students who are graduating in June not be competitive in the world, good citizens, life-long learners, able to participate in the read/write world?

Chris Lehmann: Will -- Local control of school, not federal. People in their cities and towns WILL want kids to be amazing...

Kelly Hines: Kids need direction. If we dont' give it to them, someone else is

Gordon: To ignore the power of elearning is to continue to think of school as a place. :>(

csessums: let kids choose their teachers?

KarenJan: @angela - and shouldn't we be willing to model a love for lifelong learning?

Laura Deisley: learning environments, classroom or home, need to be relational--it is about the relationships

Nellie Detusch: kids should be encouraged to ask questions

Chris Lehmann: Someone tell Diana L. to chime in. She's sitting next to me.

Luann: the most important things kids teach me is what they need to learn. I'd better listen, if I want them to learn.

Jackie Gerstein: Teachers as facilitators - they become co-learners with their students.

Moderator: And who forces local control...parents?

Doug: @John ... know you are right John but the idea would still be the same

Josh: we need to help students question, filter and evaluate - give them strategies to do this, share what we do?

MelDavis: @Sylvia Not just to experience the world but to explore, understand, build connections. Until we escape the confines of NCLB we are pulled in two different directions.

John Connell: @doug belshaw - learning from the kids is not the same as being taught by the kids

Joe Brennan: You mean the Malvinas war?

Jackie Gerstein: I agree John Connell!

emilyvickery: @cessums No judgement. Forwarding info. Pew Interent III research report does call for more SL type learning environments, largely distributed, cheaper, mobile devices. As this happens, then the How, What, Who, Assessment of Learning change.

Chris Lehmann: If you ask people who Joe Hill is and why he's important!

Doug Belshaw 2: @John Connell: Please elaborate!

Diane Main: I would label my two types of students (described above) as "literate" and "illiterate" in the terms we're trying to explore.

micwalker: @chris Lehmann Doesn't local control cause too much duplication of effort if everyone has to take the same standardized test (In today's environment)?

Kelly Hines: @chris lehmann question about local control... is that curricular? Where should overlying standards come from? Do we need consistency? How do we get it?

KarenJan: @chrislehmann - i'm on the school board in my town, people are more interested in the "reputation" of the school to maintain their real estate values - found that very surprising when I was voted in

Chris Lehmann: mic -- you assume I'd keep the tests.

John Connell: it's the difference between teaching and learning

snbeach: Looks like it is going well.

Nellie Detusch: guide kids and observe how they function and learn from them on how to improve teaching

Dave-principalofchange: If they know how to search with a critical eye

sylvia martinez: gotta run. plumber is here

Todd Williamson: @Karen somehow that doesn't surprise me

Chris Lehmann: Kelly -- I believe what LBJ's Sec't of Education said about national standards, "Keep them as broad as possible."

John Connell: what is taught is not necessarily what is learned, and what we learn from someone is not necessarily what they are trying to teach us

Doug Belshaw 2: @John: Cool. So learning doesn't have to involve teaching?

Nellie Detusch: I am continuously learning from my kids

Jackie Gerstein: @Diane Main - categorizing kids as either literate or illiterate is a generalization like have a generalized view of intellligence - IQ

MelDavis: @SNBeach yes?

Dave-principalofchange: It is the critical eye, the analytical skills..among others that we must teach

windsordi: kids are certainly skilled at some of the current technologies... but will they "see the bigger picture"... or even bother to try, without an educator who challenges them to expand the thinking and learning

Louise: Literate and illiterate existed throughout history even when we could define literacy. How do we get them there when we don't agree what it is?

Moderator to snbeach: for me

JimBurkeMaine: Would the new literacies be processes then?

Josh: agree - assessing is the trick - providing feedback

John Connell: i wouldn't take it to that extreme

carolarc: exactly

Nellie Detusch: believing in the kids' ability to learn

Chris Lehmann: I think we aren't going to lose the tests right now... so let's give the NAEP or the TIMSS or whatever in literacy and math in 4th, 8th and 11th and be DONE with it.

micwalker: @chris Lehman No, just forced to because of Adequate Yearly Progress. I'd blow them up if I could!

John Connell: Read Ron Burnett on the Radical Impossibility of Teaching.....

tweisz: and using it to create new thinking

Chris Lehmann: Mic -- AYP, in its very name, is insulting to teachers, students and schools.

micwalker: Agreed!

Diane Main: @Jackie What I mean is that there are students who can handle tasks put before them, and there are those who have been trained in such a way that prevents them from really LEARNING anything.

Luann: Chris, I so agree.

Dave-principalofchange: So true about teaching vs. learning

Hiram Cuevas: There are some prerequisite skills students will need to have before they can get to that point. Of course they can get there but not every student will be able to provide a useful learning environment for teachers.

angela maiers: @KarenJan- Yes-we should. I think the most telling interview question for a new teachers should be: Tell me about something you have recently learned?

Dave-principalofchange: I think we are wrong if we assume that student learning only happens in the contect of our teaching

Dave-principalofchange: There are so many ways for studnets to learn today

dave cormier: being able to have a subtler view of knowledge

Nellie Detusch: you are learning how to improve your teaching

ericj: everybody to learn

KarenJan: @angela - great question and can we ask that of our tenured teachers as well?

Luann: some students learn in spite of us.....

dave cormier: yup.

Laura Deisley: @angela maiers: ...and HOW you learned it...

Josh: teaching = constructing, learning = building?

tweisz: I wish this chatboard was on the whiteboard - I can't keep up!

Dave-principalofchange: some students learn despite us

micwalker: @KarenJan Refreshing to see a School Board member involved in this discussion! Where are you located?

angela maiers: @JohnConnell-good point!

Luann: tweisz go to wide view

Jackie Gerstein: learning anything? Sorry, but I used to work with adjudicated youth - whose street smartness blew me away. I think we need to be cautious in labeling kids as literate vs illerate - this is too general. Literate in what? Hence, back to our deifnition about what is Literacy?

KarenJan: @micwalker - MA

Nellie Detusch: yes

dave cormier: not me.

JenWagner: @tweisz yes, I wish we coudl eliminate the white board and stretch the chat

tweisz: @luann - wheww - thanks!

Luann: yw

Moderator: Jen drag the corners

Chris Lehmann: Jen -- you can... just unlock view.

KarenJan: @jenW - you can,

Edwin Wargo: @luann - I think that many students learn in spite of us and in many intangible ways.

Jackie Gerstein: Agree JenWagner!

dave cormier: I think they have a better view of the web than most teachers because they use the web more

John Connell: @angela why, thank you, ma'am

Nellie Detusch: students are brighter than their teachers realize

dave cormier: not because they're young

lorenchuk: @twiesz - I can't either, so many individual threads

Nellie Detusch: we need to open up to the students

Jackie Gerstein: I think MOST students learn in spite of school not because of it.

paulrwood: Not in my classes

Paula White: so is K-2 about teaching skills (to read, write and do arithmetic), and above that in supporting students to use those skills to learn?

Diane Main: @Jackie my students aren't street smart -- it's a private school; I am talking about those who want to be (and are accustomed to being) dragged through the "learning" so that they can complete the evaluation (usually a paper test) at the end -- they retain nothing

Nellie Detusch: kids learn in spite of schools

JenWagner: Unlock and stretch -- excellent -- can read much more chat now!!!

KarenJan: What do your own kids say about school? vacations are a good time to have that conversation

jomcleay: often in school we can argue for phones and ipods to be used in a curriculum context, can't we?

Edwin Wargo: @nellie I think most of us learned in spite of schools

Sue L.: I remember being totally amazed as I watched my nephew 'work' a chat room about 11 years ago... my jaw dropped in amazement that one could juggle a conversation with 10 other people at the same time - I likened it to being in a party in the kitchen with 10 people and talking to them all at one time - this was something he could help me learn about.

Laura Deisley: @doug that is so true...true of teachers and students

angela maiers: @KarenJan-YES! Especially for reliscensure purposes!

JenWagner: Wil they REALLY need to tools -- has that been proven?? 100%

Jackie Gerstein: @ Dinae - I am just paying the advocate of students who have not been given the same opporunities as more affluent and "educated" systems.

Dave-principalofchange: You're right Doug. I am thinking of students with language disabilities who would have a hard time communicating as we are today.

Nellie Detusch: students are wired to the cell phone more than they are to the Internet in most countries

JenWagner: I dont think EVERYONE will use Tech

csessums: dougbelshaw is human afterall!

mark oehlert: @JenWagner...great point

Luann: @jonmcleay I let kids use cell phones to take p hotos and look stuff up when computer lab is full - rules be stuffed.

tweisz: I have not come across student who don't like it - only those who have had far less access

jomcleay: @luann yes

Doug Belshaw 2: @csessums: Oh yes, very human, Chris!

Laura Deisley: @doug or just introverts, people who don't want to be socially networked

Sue L.: poo poo on the digital natives

Chris Lehmann: Here's a thought: What's the worst consenquence of all this? What's the downside of a school that would move completely into the kind of literacies we're talking about here?

Jackie Gerstein: It also in the pedagogies used for different ses groups.

Moderator: What literacies?

Doug Belshaw 2: @Chris Lehmann: Not enough jobs to fit skillset

windsordi: @JenWagner - everyone WILL use the tech... very hard to move into any job thiese days that does not require it

JenWagner: I dont think everyone will want or use access as well............some people will not care, and they will be okay with that......and perhaps also will be productive, effective, and happy human beings

Dave-principalofchange: So right Dave. Like the printing press, the world has changed.

Luann: chris - a few kids would probably bug out but I think we'd reach a lot more kids if we had some options for them

Nellie Detusch: kids love to learn under their conditions not ours

Diane Main: @JAckie, I used to teach in an urban jr HS in NJ -- so I know what you mean -- that's an entirely different world and we falsely label students' intelligence based on seemingly irrelevant factors

paulrwood: All of our incoming freshmen are given an 80 gig vid ipod for lessons, podcasts, discovery vids, as a flash drive, content carrier

Jackie Gerstein: I agree that tech will be everywhere - I just bought OLPC xo's

Chris Lehmann: Doug -- what will our kids NOT get in this model? What are the ramifications of that?

Dave-principalofchange: But we are still teaching in the old model in SO many classrooms

csessums: @lehmann how about the opposite--a school with no focus on 21c literacies?

Dave-principalofchange: No wonder the kids are tuning out

Cathy Arreguin: I agree w/dave .. technology changes rapidly, however learning to learn is the larger issue

John Connell: agreed @dave cormier - we have to shift dcisively away from the deficit model of learning

Jackie Gerstein: Love it "openess of knowledge"!

Sue L.: access - is still key - used to be the town square, printing press, now the clouds!

dave cormier: lol

Jackie Gerstein: Spell checks in chat rooms, maybe!

Joe Brennan: Yeah for us typing impaired!

Chris Lehmann: csessums -- I'd rather Jakob and Theo go to a progressive school with a full belief in their humanity than a technocratic school where the 21st Century tools are everywhere in service of a test-driven curricula.

Moderator: archiving this

mark oehlert: sorry I'm late but have we already hit on changing curriculum to match new rquirements? RE the Bill Gates Speech to National Governors Association in 2005...

Laura Deisley: Does critical thinking change? I have teachers who are very concerned about students who cannot critically think or read...

jomcleay: that's great Will

Nellie Detusch: having an open mind is the key and most teachers in school don't have an open mind

Dave-principalofchange: In some ways, technology helps us archive learning in new ways.

angela maiers: Thanks Will!

tweisz: I agree - I have trouble just keeping up with my own social bookmarking

Cathy Arreguin: knowledge building lacks persistent... good point

csessums: @lehmann mee too!

Dave-principalofchange: Think of the podcast or wiki that preserves learning for students

Cathy Arreguin: *persistence

ericj: knowledge is easier to store and manipulate

Chris Lehmann: @csessums thought you might.

KarenJan: people ask, "Where does Change begin?" Does it begin in our kids' schools?

lindseyb16: @Nellie D a growth mindset as well as an open mind

Rodd Lucier: On the other side, I think so much is being archived that there is much sifting ability necessary...

Sue L.: I believe the skill set of facilitating these types of environments for effective learning is very new.

Jackie Gerstein: Were 19th century learners the same as 20th century learners?

emilyvickery: @chris lehmann Agree! Imperative that the literacies discussed here be included in learning. These literacies are the new amino acids of the basics beyond reading, writing, and arithmatic.

KarenJan: can we impact change in the schools that our own kids attend?

Josh: @lindsey - nice dweck ref!

Moderator: "the ability to remove barriers to access information"

angela maiers: @KarenJan-trying that in my own kids school, and it is a really fine line.

mark oehlert: The is the "U.S. schools are obsolete" speech http://twurl.nl/vpjlfe

doris3m: just being able to follow this conversation by reading writing comments and trying to understand a different language is definetely a lot of new literacies many teachers are lacking in my country...

Paula White: Laura, are they being asked to critically think/read about anything they CARE about? I bet they can but are choosing NOT to engage in stupid school games.

Chris Lehmann: Cormier -- you're in Postman's argument now!

lindseyb16: @josh big impact book

carolarc: A perfect example of "21st century llearning" is this discussion group. It's amazing that so many different people from all over are communicating and connecting.

Moderator: I'll be interviewing Dweck in February btw

Laura Deisley: @paula That is exactly what I think...and if it is all text based, then we're making a mistake as well

Josh: Very cool - that'll be a great conversation to follow

dan_serrato: Funny, I'm in a city where high school sports seem more important than literacies and technology together

Chris Lehmann: Will - you're our hero.

JenWagner: @Moderator I wish you the best in your writing endeavors in 2009!!!

Moderator: Shuddup

angela maiers: Sharing and creating new knowledge is more critical than knowledge storing

Nellie Detusch: I couldn't find 20 instructors in a modern western country that use blended learning in higher education. The situation is pretty sad.

Celeste: literacies evolve as the world around us and our needs evolve

Moderator: not you jen

ehelfant: @will is the dweck interview open to all

Diane Main: So my back-and-forth with Jackie makes me think: do all students in all locations require the same literacies, or will there be different objectives in different settings? A logistical nightmare! If not, how do we get all students to sense relevancy?

Sue L.: creating knowledge

MelDavis: @Laura Deisley: I'm concerned that we spend so little time on critical thinking, students constructing their learning.

tweisz: teaching how to tag instead of how to read the dewey decimal system

Moderator: Liz yes

Andrea Z: It seems that it can also be argued that literacy is not only to bring together knowledge but to transform it in a new way.

Karen: I worry that there isn't a sense of urgency. Our schools seem compacent. I want to light a fire under them.

JenWagner: @moderator -- I knew that -- I have chat literacy

Dave-principalofchange: I remember going to the university library the first time and saying "whew...where do I start." Now we say that about the web. Were are our librarians?

Moderator: Howard Rheingold will be here this Tuesday at 11:30 am ET

LindaN: Fluid synthesis of ideas

Moderator: Will be tweeting that out.

Paula White: angela, sharing and creating new knowledge that others use.

Laura Deisley: @meldavis But what is our definition of critical thinking and reading in an age where access to information can take them so wide

jomcleay: good point Dave

Joe Brennan: St. Augustine, fearing the collapse of the Roman Empire, pushed the trivium and quadrivium as the way to preserve knowledge. Still the basis of our different "subjects."

Laura Deisley: how do we get kids to go "deep"? I think must have relationship and find where they are passionate, interested

Andrea Z: good point

windsordi: SO:... we used to drink deeply from few sources and then reflect... now we skip rapidly through thousands of shallow pools...have we lost the power of the reflection? are we just repeating others glib summaries, rather than taking the time to ponder an develop our own thoughts

dan_serrato: absolutely

dave cormier: @Brennan thanks for that... I'd forgotten about it

Laura Deisley: and that isn't an efficient model

JenWagner: But Will, I don't think we are all on the same page 100% -- this entire room

mark oehlert: Laura...we're not teaching them to go deep now are we?

Doug Belshaw 2: @windsordi: Great point - there's far too much drinking from shallow pools going on.

Paula White: @laura or where they can encounter people globally and learn that way as well?

Nellie Detusch: Karen, I feel the same. Want to start a movement?

Dave-principalofchange: Sometimes my daugher, age 13, is more connected out of school than in school

Chris Lehmann: Gawd... that Cormier guy... he talks too much.

Sue L.: @laura... I think 'going deep' takes work and many of our students don't wish to work.. TV does not take work

Laura Deisley: @mark That is the issue...how do we teach them to go deep...

Jackie Gerstein: And this and similar groups also differ from the demographics of a flat world. I wonder how this conversation can have a global voice.

angela maiers: My expereince is the same-whatever is in the maual is what is taught!

ehelfant: thanks all, have to take kids to the movie and will have to listen to the archive

mark oehlert: aren't we drinking from pools just deep enough to satisfy standardized tests?

ericj: definitely dave.

Jackie Gerstein: @mark = pools of stale water - maybe!

Laura Deisley: @sue L: then that is what we need to figure out...how to get them interested in doing "work"

Chris Lehmann: @ehelfant -- I owe you an email.

Doug Belshaw 2: Can you do that with young people?

Joe Brennan: @dave C, too many years as an Augustinian to let it pass.

Doug Belshaw 2: Do they *know* what they need to know?

windsordi: ... and be a winner for life... not just this course!

Paula White: I think kdis WILL go deep if the learnign episode is set up well enough. teachers don't for a variety of reasons. .

Moderator: so is that a literacy or a skill?

dan_serrato: even though we, in this room, may not always be on the same page, we are definitely different than the people we provide PD to

mark oehlert: we should they go deep in school? not valued there...not valued in the outside world either

Nellie Detusch: I refuse to teach adults. I find high school learners great teachers. I learn from them more than I do from my professors.

Jackie Gerstein: Need to re-conceptualize the assessment process for the 21st century.

angela maiers: Open ended assignments drive my graduate students crazy!

JenWagner: Okay -- but aren't student teachers being taught to be creative -- and then they are thrown into schools where they are taught that "Testing" proves their effectiveness??

doris3m: an interdisciplinary vision ..that's what technolgy bring into our classes..

tweisz: I was reading something recently about how educational systems do not strive for intellectualism (teachers and students)

Josh: @Jackie - agree here

Kelly Hines: @jackie gerstein Absolutely!

micwalker: @dave cormier Agreed. I'm working with staff on student led instruction and the comment I got was "We need more direct instruction!" How do we balance?

Moderator: grades suck

mark oehlert: anyone have a job assessment that asks where they have "gone deep" in the prior year?

Paula White: again, as Laura said, relationships are key to kids going deep, as well as content and opportunities.

Dave-principalofchange: Will - I think a literacy is much more complicated than a skill....so we are talking about complex literacies

KarenJan: I would love to see this type of online conversation happen in schools through an elluminate session. I wonder what that would look like? Kids really do want to have an impact and participate

jomcleay: grades seem like the money to students sometimes

Karen: We aren't giving the kids time enough to go deep. Can we slow down? Let kids explore, experiment ...

Luann: I am just excited to hear all of you talking about these things. I sure don't hear it at my school and am so pleased to have been here to listen.

Jackie Gerstein: grading is the most painful thing I do as a teacher - turns students away from the learning process.

Nellie Detusch: I also learned outside of school in the 70s.

Josh: Ah, grades are just simple feedback - a starting point

Hiram Cuevas: Where does self discipline fit into this equation? Sometimes the only motivation for learning to occur is extrinsic.

jomcleay: students say that's worth an A I spent so much time on it

Moderator: KarenJan...if you want to set it up, I've got the room...

KarenJan: @hiram = that is not learning

Laura Deisley: @karen We don't at school and we don't at home...too many "schedules"...

Jackie Gerstein: Prefer qualitative feedback to students - they appreciate that! Not the grades!

windsordi: I had an job assessment like that... asked where my *thinking* was going... and what my personal growth plan was...

Chris Lehmann: Grades are a necessary construct because schools are not just about learning. They are a sorting and sifting system.

Jackie Gerstein: Focault and sorting systems!

Moderator: What if we held a buddy session...everyone brings someone who isn't in the conversation right now.

KarenJan: @will - how do we do that - has to be through facebook

Chris Lehmann: Jackie -- yep.

mark oehlert: @windsordi....where do you work?

Moderator:

jomcleay: @Chris sorting into limited uni places?

Kelly Hines: will - sounds good to me

Chris Lehmann: @jomcleay -- yep.

Diane Main: At some point, we all need to compete, so grades can help set students up for a world in which their achievement will be measured.

mark oehlert: @Jackie...Panopticon

Dave-principalofchange: It depends if your grade is a final grade. In so much of life, there is no final grade...at least I hope so

Josh: Grades can be more powerful in a thoughtful grading system, eh?

Chris Lehmann: And it's why SLA has grades... we weren't going to be revolutionaries at the expense of our kids.

Dave-principalofchange: Can I re-take the test?

jomcleay: why should uni places be limited now?

Chris Lehmann: Josh -- yep.

CaryHarrod: That's great to let kids create their own textbooks but my experience is that is NOT happening in most classrooms today.

lindseyb16: @will could we do it with a number of schools participating get the students side of this

Doug Belshaw 2: Great point Chris.

Diane Main: But maybe our schools need to give students more options and therefore more opportunities to earn good grades in specialized areas of their preference.

tweisz: When students are involved in activities that mean something to them you often find that grades don't even matter to them

micwalker: @will Buddy system would be good, but the people who need to be here are classroom teachers. Need more lead time!

ericj: it's more important for students to be reflective than to have grades given to them

Kelly Hines: for me it's less about the grade, and more about using the assessment to drive teaching/learning

Sue L.: teacher need new skills to do that kind of teaching Dave

Nellie Detusch: how about teaching for sharing the wiki way instead of teaching for competition?

Hiram Cuevas: That was my point about the extrinsic motivation.

Jackie Gerstein: That's cool - if they are taught those skils from the get-go. My students are writing and recording their own illustrated books with narratives - Teachers provide a struture.

Chris Lehmann: My battery isn't going to last 15 minutes.

Joe Brennan: Way to light the match, Will!

JoseRodriguez: @dave I agree regarding younger students

MelDavis: @Laura: to develop an understanding or opinion after finding (not primary grades) evaluating resources

Celeste: yes, there needs to be more structure for younger ones, but they can still make choices

Luann: no one else in my school is on twitter.

Chris Lehmann: Will -- we're all leaving when the bell rings.

Dave-principalofchange: 2:15 is great

dave cormier: @Sue that's why teacher training is so interesting to me

Maria U: Maybe the cultural shift that is going to accompany global financial collapse will be an opportunity for a paradigm shift away from "winning" as exemplified by grades or money or...

Josh: lol

Dave-principalofchange: Is anybody recording this conversation? the audio?

Jackie Gerstein: Luann - then that is a goal for 2009 - more twitter for your school

Hiram Cuevas: yes it is being recorded

JenWagner: I would like to see this conversation expand -- as you suggest -- with teachers from our schools -- but honestly, do youthink any of your teachers would join in??

dave cormier: woa

Kelly Hines: If only schools could all access Twitter at school. Stupid blocking

Dave Solon: I am - at least I think it is working.

dave cormier: utopian

Luann: jackie - i am having a lot of tech goals for my school.

Dave-principalofchange: Great, I would like to know how to get a copy

Nellie Detusch: let them stay social but leave the content and material out

CaryHarrod: Only a few would join in and they would want to be paid for it.

lindseyb16: @JenWagner a small dedicated group would join in from my school

windsordi: ... need the structure for students? then post the marking rubric up from, and make the level 4s be those compentancies which show the 21st C 's (and I agree that name HAS to GO!)

Moderator: is there a distinction between experiencing the world and knowing the world?

Luann: At my school, technology = equipment, not using the tech we already have in web 2.0

windsordi: up front!

Moderator: Just a thought...

JenWagner: Good Lindsey -- lets get them involved!!

Laura Deisley: @maria U: Well, I was just going to say our capitalist focus may indeed be the culprit--our own kiss of death

Kelly Hines: @moderator Definitely.

Luann: Will, yes.

Nellie Detusch: I would like to see wikieducator used for content

Doug Belshaw 2: Sorry, meant in a nice way

Moderator: Which do we want for our kids?

Hiram Cuevas: @moderator absoutely

Moderator: Or both?

CaryHarrod: Isn't it through experiencing the world that we get to know the world?

Luann: Our students experience THEIR world, not THE world

Doug Belshaw 2: (having just read More's Utopia)

Kelly Hines: @moderator It's like eating Thai food versus reading about it in a book

Sue L.: 85 people in the environment 5 mainly doing the talking be interested in analysing the number posting... is this typical participation?

Jackie Gerstein: I don't know any employers who look at grades - even highering higher ed faculties. DIfference between grades and assessment.

Josh: making sense of the world...

Todd Williamson: @kellyhines No Taco Tuesday's???

Dave-principalofchange: We need assessment - would you like to cook dinner for yor family and nobody tells you if they liked the stew or not

Maryanne: @dave Is there a "write up" of your work with 11 year olds?

lihonda: their world IS the world

Kelly Hines: @Todd WIlliamson It's Friday, silly. Mojitos!

Nellie Detusch: formative assessment

Todd Williamson: haha

Josh: we need to assess - yes formative

csessums: assessment shouldnt be earn some stuff then later on we'll take a test

Laura Deisley: gotta run...thanks will...

csessums: learn

Todd Williamson: sorry I was out for a bit helping another staff member with his webpage

LindaN: There have to be ways to help students develop the abilities to think and work as actual scientists, anthropologists, engineers, etc.

Jackie Gerstein: Trying to quantify human performance will one day be laughed at.

JenWagner: I think we need to have this kind of chat once a month -- I like learning with you all -- but I think we need to add new voices each time

Doug: I might have missed bits here but isn't there a perceived move from pedagogy through androgogy to heutogogy ... ownership rules

lihonda: @Jackie I agree. It won't come soon enough

VinnieVrotny: Will, et al, thanks for organizing this. Have errands to run. Have a wonderful 2009 all.

dave cormier: I'm gonna stop now

Paula White: #@Luann and isn't it the teacher's job to expose them to a larger world? problem in my school is that my teachers are still in THEIR world (the old one without global networking

Jackie Gerstein: Not soon enough I agree

micwalker: Authenticity is the key!

Gordon: literacy is a gradient...good point

Kelly Hines: @JenWagner That's an excellent idea.

dave cormier: gotta go and get my baby

dave cormier: i hear a wailing from the other room

dave cormier: Thanks doug

Kelly Hines: @dave cormier thatnks for your input

windsordi: if we don't assess, the kids who need additional supports would never qualify from them.... but assessment is not always... there needs to be a good portion of the time for fluid growth and indepth reflection

Jackie Gerstein: Difference between dystopias (the NCLB driven schools) and Utopias!

Sue L.: @luann I'm working in the developing world and it makes me so sad to see the reliance on "stuff" rather than internet access, good teaching supports, etc.

Celeste: @micwalker - YES! authenticity!

CaryHarrod: Thanks for arranging this conversation, Will! Gotta go, too!

Nellie Detusch: but what can we do to start making changes?

Luann: @Paula yes it is and yes teachers are. So wrapped up in the leaves on the trees they don't see the forest. I blame standardized tests and that's my excuse

dave cormier: Let them judge for themselves

Josh: @windsordi and then feedback on that indepth reflection

Jackie Gerstein: Why? Self-filtering seems to work - filtering=sorting systems

mark oehlert: assessment is not good/bad prima facie...deoends on how well its crafted and to what end it is used for

lorenchuk: Where will this be archived? My head is swimming and would love to add to the discussion after reading it all!

Dave Solon: This has been helpful and a bit confusing. I have 10 minutes to give a "Web Literacy" presentation to 22 school district curriculum directors next Tuesday. Trying to decide whether to point them to this archive or not. Will have to listen again to the archive before I decide.

Josh: feedback on how students question, how they filter, how they evaluate and make meaning

Gordon: Are there literacies under these discussions that are school environment geared to be a successful studnet?

dave cormier: http://livingarchives.ca/ here's that project btw

angela maiers: So what is the next step? Where can we take this conversation and move to some action-thoughts, ideas...

Luann: @Sue I understand that one. Have spent time in 3rd world countries.

Nellie Detusch: so should we hire 10 year olds?

dave cormier: thanks for the debate Doug tahnks all

Jackie Gerstein: From Randy Nelson of Pixar - rather "the proof of a portfolio than the promise of a resume?"

micwalker: @windsordi What percentage should be formative vs. summative?

John Connell: @windsordi - assessment for learning - yes; assessment for measuring pointlessly ad infinitum - no.

JenWagner: Dave -- personally, I would advise you to "NOT". We tend to be the extreme. Just speak from your heart and your experience

emilyvickery: Survey: Are they ready to work? "Surveyed 400 of the Fortune 500 companies, with results showing that even the best-educated university graduates are deficient in the applied skills necessary for the workplace."

JenWagner: that was to @Dave Solon

Luann: mic, that depends on the content area, not? WOuld be diffeent in physics than in 10th grade bio

Jackie Gerstein: agree emily!

Sue L.: The market will take care of itself - decide on their own criteria for selecting 'good' - free market good for that

Paula White: luann, I don't blame standardized testing as much as people not being exposed. The PD in our division is so antiquated, it's not funny. I am the one who teaches folks ao but twitter, voicethread, etc. we have MAYBE 20 people who use 2.0 web tools regularly. ..

KarenJan: so what have we accomplished?

Todd Williamson: I'm thinking we can tell the twitter users by the @'s

Dave-principalofchange: This has been GREAT - love to do is some more

Dave Solon: @JenWagner - this is what I've planned so far: http://davesolon.com/weblitpres.mp4

Doug: @John ... assessment of ... assesssment for but even better ... assessment AS learning

JenWagner: @KarenJan -- yet again, just a time of sharing

lindseyb16: Nellie what is your twitter id?

Jackie Gerstein: If it was even try for physics then how would theories like the string theory have evolved?

csessums: let them play games!

Luann: Paula, I think some are to focused on the tests to get OUT and get some exposure. Agree on PD.

micwalker: Gotta go. Thanks, Will and all! Fun learning with you!

KarenJan: @jenW - would love to see the sharing become a radical movement

csessums: instant assessment

angela maiers: @KarenJan-better question...What CAN we accomplish now???

John Connell: @doug agreed!

windsordi: twitter users always speak with @'s!

JenWagner: @dave_solon -- thanks - checking it now

Josh: @Luann - not sure - if youa re talking about thinking skills or meaning making skills, then maybe not b/n physics/biology but yes between physics and history?

KarenJan: @angela- agree!

Doug Belshaw 2: @Dave Cormier: Cheers Dave!

Luann: @paula and I find myself being the go-to tech person in my building too

JenWagner: @KarenJan - we have not proven in the past to have that happen

JenWagner: perhaps 2009 will be a new year??

John Connell: @windsordi true

Todd Williamson: I think I'll start referring to colleagues by saying @ before their name

Tim Stahmer: @will Thanks for organizinging this. It's helping to jump start my brain after a very lazy vacation. Gotta go back to "real" work.

Dave Solon: @JenWagner - any feedback is welcome @dsolon in Twitter.

KarenJan: @jenW - our students' learning require that!

Jeremy Brueck: @willrich will you be able to provide a link to the chat or can we export to review?

Luann: Josh, yes, I think so.

Sue L.: oh no... not technology classes... can't we just have technology integrated subjects? authentic, no?

JenWagner: @KarenJan -- no argument from me

Jackie Gerstein: Agree Sue

windsordi: 2009's already getting old!... some of the planning I'm doing is currently 2013!

angela maiers: Thoughts and ideas for next steps, actions this is too important to go on as if this conversation did not happen

Hiram Cuevas: That's also checking for understanding.

Nellie Detusch: twitter: nelliemuller

Chris Lehmann: later gang... thanks, Will!

Kelly Hines: @angela maiers Agree

JenWagner: I like conversations -- I truly do. I look forward to seeing action

Celeste: Thanks for the fun conversationa and making me think! See you on Twitter and hopefully again in other online conversations!

tweisz: @Sue L. we still have a - get this - basic computers requirement in our district!

Luann: I love that kids come in now knowing more tech skills than even 5 years ago. Heck, they taught me to txt

Paula White: @angela, perhaps we could set up a place for some of us who have done the "deep' teaching, providing for "deep learning" to shre those experiences.

KarenJan: can a movement begin at EduCon?

Jackie Gerstein: Good brain work!

Janet English: Thanks, Will!

Nellie Detusch: I agree Paula White

Maryanne: Thanks for organizing this, Will.

Luann: I want an EduCon in the PNW.

JenWagner: If we come back 1 month later, and discuss the same thing -- then that would be sad.

Josh: @will - probably a good idea - hard to summarize this - thanks for hosting

Doug: from me ... thats Will

Jackie Gerstein: Thanks for hosting this - fun!

Sue L.: take the big step...support the classroom teacher to do the tech training!!

JenWagner: Thanks Will for hosting this

jomcleay: It's been great to listen and read

Kelly Hines: @moderator We'll just invite that 5% of our parents you referred to this morning

Luann: ohhhh a wiki.....

Rodd Lucier: Keep the discussion alive locally, regionally, and globally...

JimBurkeMaine: The wiki address again?

Moderator: http://literacydiscussion.wikispaces.com/

cristama: @Paula, I'd love that too...some great things are happening

JimBurkeMaine: Thanks.

Nellie Detusch: How about joining wikieducator?

Dave Solon: Will - Thanks for this - will have to listen to it again.

angela maiers: @paulawhite- great idea. The wiki is a great idea. will definitely blog and connect to other blogs

John Connell: continung the conversation across a range of media is the best next step

JenWagner: Will, it is always good to chat

Luann: woudl love to come back but I'm on the west coast so would need later on a school day.

Nellie Detusch: http://www.wikieducator.org/User:Nelliemuller

JimBurkeMaine: Excellent questions. . .thanks. ..

Louise: Thanks again - much to think about!

kjarrett: Can we all agree to do ONE THING as a result of this talk in our classrooms this coming week or month? I know what I'm going to be doing...

angela maiers: Will-thanks so much for organizing this!

lorenchuk: Thanks Will, great to be here.

jomcleay: Lots of things to folw up and learn about

Diane Main: Oh! Tweet when you're interviewind Carol Dweck!

Josh: great line up will

John Pederson: Sausage. Just to get that word on the record.

Doug: @John ... we need to get more UK input into these ideas

Diane Main: interviewing, sorry

lihonda: Thanks Will!

lindseyb16: Thanks @will looking foward to going forward with you all

Paula White: sl ahre, Kevin. what is it you'll be doing?

John Pederson: Thanks everybody!

Luann: I am stardiverr on twittr BTW

Maria U: Thanks to all!

KarenJan: @kjarrett - great idea

Dave-principalofchange: Yeah, thanks!

Nellie Detusch: http://www.wikieducator.org/User:Nelliemuller

Kay: thanks Will!

Joe Brennan: Great discussion, all!

JenWagner: Will, you sound frustrated -- please don't

Nellie Detusch: thank you

Todd Williamson: thanks for setting this up Will...enjoyed it even though I missed a few minutes

Shawn: Thanks for the conversation! Thanks Will.

kjarrett: I teach like Edwin Wargo does in a computer lab ... and I am going to be bringing my lab into the classroom this month...

KarenJan: thanks, Will

Diane Main: Thanks, Will.

jomcleay: Happy new year

paulrwood: Thanks Will

angela maiers: Happy New Year Everyone!

JenWagner: you inspire thought!!!

Kealoha Yoshioka: thank you Happy New YEar

Nellie Detusch: what's your twitter?

Diane Main: Happy New Year to all.

Kelly Hines: Thanks Will for organizing. Thanks everyone!

doris3m: thanks for everything..

Doug: Just great stuff ... many thanks all

windsordi: I blogged on the twitter moving to full dicsussions!

kjarrett: Like this: http://www.ncs-tech.org/?p=2341

Doug Belshaw 2: Happy New Year - bye everyone! (@dajbelshaw)

bethwellman: thanks!

alicebarr: Thanks so much!

John Connell: A guid new year to ane and a'

doris3m: Gracias a todos...

Jackie Gerstein: Wishing everyine a Literate 2009

Luann: Happy New year and thank you all so much!

LindaN: Thanks Will!

kjarrett: Thanks Will for organizing!

JenWagner: great way to start 2009

Edwin Wargo: Thanks Will!

KarenJan: @alice

jomcleay: Thanks Will and all

Paula White: thanks!

Moderator: By everyone...

alicebarr: @KarenJan Hi

windsordi: Bye will - great discussion today!

alicebarr: multitasking

cristama: Thanks Will! I was a silent participant, but an appreciative one.

Moderator: Nice to have you cristama

Pat Sweeney: thanks

JoseRodriguez: great following discussion bye, all